IMO 4.0 will not be stable before New Year

[vegvit]

It has been about 9 months since the 4.0 was announced to be right around the corner and still counting. I looked at the news section and saw the last post on May 18th saying the stable version of 4.0 is only few weeks ahead. Well I talked to a programmer who looked at the Sunshop code and said there are many gaps with potential issues and I should not switch over to 4.0 until 4.01 is published. So far this programmer has been right with his assesments and TWT has always missed its promised dates, so I think at this point it is safer to rely on the programmer's word than TWT's understanding of "stable". I have a feeling that even after the so called "stable" version is released in the coming weeks it will not really be stable and with this pace of progress I think the really stable and relatively bug-free version will be available around New Year.

TWT should reset all existing customers' licenses once the so called 4.0 stable version is released as all customers deserve to download the bug fixes and the really stable version once available. As some of you know TWT made a big stink and forced a lot of people to buy new licenses because Sunshop 3.5 had a security problem and instead of publishing a patch download to fix the issue for all Sunshop owners , Sunshop asked people to buy new licenses and upgrade to 3.5.1 so that the security issue is addressed. People had no option but buy new licenses. This was wrong and the lame excuse that people should have downloaded the upgrade before when this issue was first brought up by TWT about a year ago does not work because a security issue can and should be addressed by free patches for everyone, for all customers regardless. It is not the customer's fault that Sunshop was designed poorly initially with security holes. if something similar were to occur again in the future regardless of their license status security patches must be available to ALL.

This was a rather harsh comment and it was meant to be. It is not always your way or highway and the message needs to be heard.

[TWT-Chris]

I am not exactly sure what your "Programmer" is basing his/her assessment on but I can tell you that they are wrong. I would love for your "Programmer" to point out these "many gaps with potential issues". Honestly there are only 2 things missing from the 4.0 version at this point. One is the Gift Certificate functionality and the other is the ability to modify orders at the product level. So unless you "Programmer" knows more about our code then we do, I invite them to point those issues out.

As far as security issues go, lets be completely honest here. EVERY web based application has them and I can almost guarantee it. New ones pop up every day and although we cant obviously foresee every new possible exploit that is around the corner we do our part to make sure that when they become known, we let everyone know immediately. The only major security issue we have ever had was in version prior to 3.5 and we took care of that with the 3.5.1 release. I can count the security issues SunShop has had on one hand, and if you look at applications like vBulletin, they seem to have them every few months. Bottom line is that its inevitable with any web based application. Just take a look at http://securitydot.net/ and you will see what I mean.

[NathanLedet]

I agree with Chris. These people who program these scripts to hack into our web sites are far from stupid. It's impossible to predict what new exploits will be out there, and Chris is dead on when he says that every web application has its security flaws. I run a few vBulletin forums and vB is a huge target because it's one of the best forums...and their team of programmers is on top of fixing things, and obviously so is the TWT team because they released the patches to fix the problem.

The only thing I do agree with you is the fact that if you have 3.5, you have to renew your license to get 3.5.1..a security patch. IMO, security related updates should be free. No new features are added.

[afpasi]

I just installed RC 4 and it is NOWHERE near completion. There are bugs all over the place. And mostly bugs that weren't there before. Things seem to be going backwards! Still can't get the taxes to work properly. The registration process has a bug in it when you choose a username already taken. This is all basic stuff that should have been working by now.

It certainly is not a 'release candidate'. With the amount of bugs in there, you'd be better off calling it Beta -16 at this point.

I am very discouraged with this whole process. Like you said in August 2006 it was stated 'stable 4 version a few days away'. We're now 9 months later, and I have not seen a significant improvement in the releases. Apart from fancy graphs that actually do work. Focus on functionality first, and add the graphs later I would say.

I can appreciate that security threats are a big problem for the programmers. I am a programmer myself and I know this can be time consuming. But make it at least functional. And you should extend everyone's licenses until this relase is stable enough.

[TWT-Chris]

1. There is nothing wrong with the taxes. They have been tested and they do function. If you have a specific issue, create a ticket or submit a bug but let us know EXACTLY what we need to do to produce the same error. Telling us that it doesn't work doesn't help anyone.

2. There is no bug when you choose a taken user name. I just tested it on the demo and I get the message. "That username is already in our system. Please choose another".

3. If you want to help get this out faster then you can help by telling us what you thin is wrong so we can investigate. Simply stating that "There are bugs all over the place" isn't going to help us get the release out any faster. We have the tracker in place for a reason.

[afpasi]

Chris, I have put the taxes on the tracker, and there IS something wrong with them. The item I put on there concerning a blank error message and being stuck in the order details screen is written off as 'not a bug'. I suppose blank error messages are acceptable.

Telling me that if I report my bugs to you faster you'd get out the release faster, in effect stating that your customers are to blame for your slow progress isn't exactly good for customer relations. That the taxes are not working is not MY fault.

Your customers are doing you a favour: most testing should be done in-house and costs a considerable amount of resources - about half of the entire development cycle. Your customers are doing that for you for free. More courtesy would be appreciated.

And, after 9 months of delay, there hasn't been an admission if the current licenses will be extended to the new version, as they should.

[TWT-Chris]

Why don't you stop making assumptions and start reading what I am actually typing. I am saying that simply stating there are bugs does not help!


I suppose blank error messages are acceptable.

Where do you even state this is the issue? I cant guess what the problem is. As I said, submit a tracker report and tell us how to duplicate the problem.

[afpasi]

Why don't you stop making assumptions and start reading what I am actually typing. I am saying that simply stating there are bugs does not help!



Where do you even state this is the issue? I cant guess what the problem is. As I said, submit a tracker report and tell us how to duplicate the problem.

You might want to check out the tracker. Issues #181 & #182.

[TWT-Chris]

We will look into 182... 181 though is not a bug and doesn't have anything to do with a duplicate username error. In order to use real time shipping you need to have a module installed.

[vegvit]

I stand by comment that the "really stable 4.0" will not be available before New Year. Time will test it. Let's see how it really goes. I do not feel I am really challenged when "few weeks" repeatedly meant "several months" for TWT in the past.

[craigw]

Honestly there are only 2 things missing from the 4.0 version at this point. One is the Gift Certificate functionality and the other is the ability to modify orders at the product level.

Chris,

I was just looking at SunShop 4.0 RC 5 and it still seems like there are several features that are not present in RC5. Since RC 5 does have the gift certificate functionality, then according to your statment the only thing remaining is "the ability to modify orders at the product level." But what about the following features that we were promised would be included in SunShop 4.0? Where are they implimented in the RC 5 version?

1) Free shipping over a certain dollar amount with the ability to select which methods are eligible for the free shipping.
2) Integration with QuickBooks.
3) Ability to require a product option be selected before the customer can either continue to shop for other products or checkout.
4) Ability to add Google Analytics to web pages in order to track statistics all the way through the checkout process.
5) Minimum order requirement.

Maybe some of these features are present and I am just overlooking them. But they are not apparent to me. Please advise. Thanks!

Craig Winters
Full Spectrum Internet
www.fullspectrumweb.com
425-775-7644

[DianeV]

With all due respect to everyone, I've been wondering how SS4 will ever be completed given the large scope of features to be included. Certainly, that list of features was compelling, exhilarating but ... well ... very lengthy. Exhuberantly lengthy, even. As one who works in the design/tech field, I'm pretty sure that few of us have a real concept of what it takes to pull off such an "update", let alone without bugs and including everything everyone wanted all at once. Kind of unfortunately, TWT released the list, it was added to, and TWT has been bombarded ever since with demands for its release (by me, too) and demands for even more features.

I'm not the most patient kid on the block. I want SS4 to be finalized, and I want it yesterday.

But I'm wondering if some of these features cannot be released as modules after the release of SS4.

For instance, I like craigw's #1, #3 and #5. But I have no interest in Google Analytics (I have no interest in handing out marketing data to anyone, regardless of what they give me for free) — and, in any case, don't you have to sign up at Google (which is not controlled by TWT) and get some code to paste into your web pages (template)? I'm not sure how this feature is expected to be automated by SS4. Heck, what if Yahoo or Amazon or Barnes & Noble come out with similar (or different) features; do we wait on those, too? So I'm not sure that holding SS4 from release over this feature is worth it.

Quickbooks integration is another such feature. Sure, some people want it, but that's not all people — and delaying the release of what promises to be a great shopping cart is not worth the wait for those who aren't interested. Or is it? And why?

Since the online demo seems to have a place for plugins, I wonder if those types of features cannot be included via modules/plugins offered after the the release of SS4. Perhaps at a low price, or no price. Other shopping cart companies do this, after all (heck, some of them even display modules made by third party developers), and it makes the basic shopping cart pricing more attractive for those who don't need such features, while allowing for extra features for those who need them. Kind of a "pick and choose" scenario.

Just thinking out loud, that's all.

[TWT-Chris]

Craigw:

I will touch on the ones I know about for sure:

2) This has already been discussed many times but I will say it again. It will be handled by an external app that will be released along side of 4.0 final.
4) I am not sure what exactly you expect on the SunShop side of things. Cant you just grab the code off of google and then plug it into a template. What more is involved?
5) This was on the original feature list so I believe it will be added.

DianeV:

I agree with you and right now our focus is finishing up what was on the original feature list. We are about 99.99% there.

[viajerozz]

Honestly there are only 2 things missing from the 4.0 version at this point. One is the Gift Certificate functionality and the other is the ability to modify orders at the product level.
Hi Chris..can you tell me, this ability to modify orders at the product level, will that allow a customer to configure a product (such as requesting engraving text or gift card text) for each individual product as it is ordered? This is a feature I am very interested in..thanks!

[TWT-Chris]

I am not sure what you mean by allowing the customer to modify it as this will be in the admin area, not on the front end.

[DianeV]

I think viajerozz meant selecting certain types of options ...?

[afpasi]

Hi Chris..can you tell me, this ability to modify orders at the product level, will that allow a customer to configure a product (such as requesting engraving text or gift card text) for each individual product as it is ordered? This is a feature I am very interested in..thanks!


Viajerozz,

Can't you just create a TestBox Option for each product where your customer types in a personalized message?